I previously posted about a conversation I had with a youth minister's wife about her church. You can read the post here. I'm writing today because I had another one of those conversations. I had breakfast with a guy who works at a local church and he made the same statement. He said, "If I didn't work there, I wouldn't attend." For some reason this just tears me up inside.
Now don't get me wrong. I don't think he's wrong for feeling that way. I certainly have felt that way before. But the part that bother's me is that they don't do anything about it. For me, when it has come to that point, you're just collecting a paycheck. And if that's the case, I think you're doubly stupid because there are a lot more things you can do to make a lot more money.
I just don't see how someone can stay in that position and live with themselves. When I quit the last church I was working at, I didn't have anything to fall back on. I just knew that my ministry had become paycheck collecting and that ISN'T RIGHT. So I left without a job to go to. I'd rather be jobless then disgrace myself in that manner.
Am I being to hard on this guy? Maybe. But it's people like this that I think really can change the local church if they are willing to leave their comfort zone.
skip to main |
skip to sidebar
Religion, Politics, and Stupid Videos
16 comments:
I would comment on the situation Jake but I am sure there is much more going on here than you can share that would affect what I would have to say. Such as maybe there is a chance for him to make change in the future, and be a positive change agent in a stagnant place. Or what if he feels a strong conviction to stay there and minister. Or what if he is able to minister there in spite of the difficulties he is facing. I am sure no matter what church any of us work at there is still another church "out there" that we would rather go to.
Sometimes the most Godly thing to do is just pray. If he is not doing that and just grumbling then I hope he gets fired. But if he is praying and seeking the Lord maybe he is being humbled and will grow out of this.
Plus I think it is troubling to look to quickly at those in ministry and admonish them for their inactivity on their convictions. How many feel a calling from the Lord to radically change their lifestyle or start a new ministry and do not because they do not want to leave their comfort zones. I would say all of us struggle to be "doers of the word" as James would call us to be. So I think the real challenge is for all of us to constantly, and seriously consider are we being faithful to what God wants us to do? Even if it will cause us pain and sacrifice.
Sorry to make this so long, just felt like ranting a little bit. Love the blog.
Merry Christmas,
ryan
I think when you call the person "doubly stupid" and constantly say things like, "I'd rather" and juxtapose his situation with one in which God gave you the grace to do the right thing then you are both too hard and self-righteous.
Don't get me wrong, I am amazed at your step of faith, and grateful for the way God has honored that. Even more than that, I admire what you did, and continue to do with the opportunities given you. But don't hold this guy up to your standard of how you acted as that of what is right.
I also have left positions that I would not rather be at (CCC), but I understand that for most people, the decision is not as black and white as you and I see it.
On another note, I like when you get black and white about things Jake. I feel like we connect more that way. Now if you saw the whole world this way, you would know how extremely jacked up I am.
Matt, this is my blog. I'm allowed to be self-righteous.
Admission is the first step to recovery.
hey man. i think the problem has to do with our practice of paid vocational ministry.
i don't necessarily have a problem with paying minsters a salary. i have a problem with how we do it.
there are lots of churches that are run like an organizations and are over-staffed. and those church are naturally going to produce ministers that feel like they work for organizations and not churches.
this guy may just be a product of the system. another worn down cog in the machine.
i don't man. i often feel guilty getting paid for ministry, too. not because i wouldn't be a part of my current church community if i didn't get paid. no, i absolutely love my church and wouldn't choose another.
the reason i feel guilty is because i feel like we could be better stewards of our money; i feel like there is more important things we could be doing with it than making the sunday morning services creative and the music sound good (which is...in extremely crude terms...what i get paid to do).
i wonder if the reason they pay me is because our current culture says that the "creative arts/worship" role is necessary to make the "machine" work.
i have asked that question and been assured this isn't the case. sometimes i believe that. sometimes i don't.
I like your overall train of thought here, but agree with Ryan in that you just never truly know the situation.
Also, as one who graduated from Bible College, worked in full time ministry, messed it up, and has been in the "real world" work force for several years, I can say that there aren't necessarily a lot more things you can do to make a lot more money. In fact, my main gripe about a Bible college education is that it pretty much helps in no way in finding good paying jobs outside of paid ministry. I'm a pretty smart, educated, and hard working dude, and I'm barely making more now than I did at my last full time ministry position over 7 years ago.
I would say many who are unhappy in their ministry may truly not have much of a choice except to stay, do the best they can to serve, and earn money to support themselves and their family. And I do not believe this is troubling to God in any way.
Have a great Christmas!
I appreciate all the comments in this post.
I'll go back to the last statement of my post. Yeah, I'm being a little hard on the guy. But, to be honest, I feel like I can. Why? Because the money I give every week goes to pay the salary of a person whose heart isn't into the ministry he's doing. Who doesn't totally sell out to the mission of the church. Then what am I tithing to? I'd rather give it to a homeless shelter or some other non-profit org. Don't I have a responsibility to be a good steward of my money, even if it means NOT giving to the local church?
And that's where I don't want to go. I don't want to question the stewardness of the church. I don't want to have to think like that.
Jason, I see your delimma and raise you one. I didn't even graduate from a bible college because the church I interned at wanted me to stay on full time. In my infinite wisdom at age 20 I thought $24,000 a year was killer. I think you make a great point about a bible college education. I'm sure the opportunities around us vary from city to city and state to state. It probably just depends on what we're willing to do to get those jobs.
Bill, I'm glad to hear you don't man.
Merry Christmas.
Bible college is a HUGE part of the problem here.
One of the biggest problems with ministry being a profession is Bible College. I almost went there, thank God I didn't (now who's on the high horse [yes I just pulled a B-Rabbit]). When I decided to leave a certain ministry that was my profession becuase my heart wasn't in it, you know what I fell back on, my secular degree.
Honestly, what kind of skills does a company see in a person with a B.A. in Youth Ministry, or Worship Arts? This person is handcuffed to stay in ministry to do what God has overall called them to: provide for their family.
If a person wants to go into ministry, go to a secular (or mainline) University or college (they are even accredited, ohhh burn for all you Ozark grads!). Learn about the world, get an applicable degree. After this, if you feel called to ministry, go to Seminary and get deep into the scriptures and application.
i just want to go on record as saying that i like bible college.
it gives people a bible education. and i appreciate my bible education. i got to study under extremely intelligent and godly men for four years. that changed me. in a good way.
sure, there is plenty to rag on when it comes to bible colleges. and while i am a cynic about most things...i am not about my decision to go to johnson.
i'd like to go on record as saying i'm not ragging bible college. I went. I enjoyed. I learned. I even missed curfew a couple of times...the heathen in me.
my beef is that i think there should be a shift from double majoring in bible/ministry into bible/accounting or bible/business or bible/computer tech, etc. my experience was that I learned a LOT more about ministry application through internships and conferences (youth specialties and the like) than I did in classes. then you can get the bible knowledge, learn ministry through real life practice and interning, and have a good real-world fall-back type of degree as well. For example, if a minister were to be fired from a church, it's not a given that he can just find another church just around the corner and not miss a paycheck. and they don't all end up at big churches that can pay nice full time salaries (not that any of you are are big churches with nice salaries, i don't really know).
i also like matt's idea...go to a secular college, learn what it's like to live and commune with actual "unsaved sinners", get a regular degree, then go to seminary. that might even be better.
you know, the opposite could be said too. You could go to bible college to "dig in" and get a masters in something secular...
true. good point.
Just let the record show that I graduated with a double major in bible and teaching...thank you very much! Bill if you don't want to get paid, we could arange that. :) Jake, quit complaining about what the church is doing and start focusing on the one you claim to follow. Yes, go back to the overselled, overused...what would Jesus do? Cheesy? Only because the salespeople got a hold of it. True? yes! Let Jesus handle the church. You take care of you and follow what you think Jesus would have YOU do. If he wants people in paid ministry positions, that is his thing if he doesn't, he'll take care of it in the end. Talking and debating weither or not the church is a good thing or a bad thing isn't the issue. I think we all need to take a long look in the mirror and see what Jesus would have us do with ourselves. Does Jesus want me to be a good mom? Yes, so that's what I do. A good wife? Yes, so that 's what I try to do :) A good teacher? Yes. So that's what I do. Who cares if you get paid to minister. The question is...are you ministering?
Love you.
Bill,
your wife works for a bible college so what are you gonna say?
This has been an interesting post as I'm in a somewhat similar dilemma myself... not 100% sure the church I work at is the church I would choose to attend. That said, I'm working my butt off to make it more of a church I would choose but it feels like a long, uphill battle and the people around me just don't get it (or at least they don't get my version of how it should be). I'm frustrated often.
- G.
Sis,
First of all, I'm not knocking the church. Never once in that post did I knock the church. As a matter of fact, the church he works at is the church I attend. So how much more does his statement hurt then? The money he's sitting around collecting is the money I'm putting in the offering plate. Doesn't seem right to me. I just want to go on record (since that seems to be the trend) that I wasn't bashing the church.
I think what Bill said sums up what I mostly feel. I think it's just our whole system that is off. I mean, when a minister gets pissed off or feels defeated about something, and his first inclination is to leave the church he's at, something's wrong. But I can't blame the minister, for why should he minister at a place that doesn't appreciate what he does, and I can't blame the church, for they are mostly people who are trying to do what is right.
All I know is that when I was a minister, I never felt like I belonged to the church. Now that I don't get paid, I love everything I do for my church. Once I felt like I didn't belong, and now I feel like I do. For me, I'll take the latter.
I know you are not ragging on the church.
Did you offer to pray with him?
Sis
Post a Comment