Look, by now it's no secret I'm an Obama man. So, it won't be a shocker when I say that Obama hit it out of the park last night. John McCain looked like a desperate kid angry that life isn't fair. Well, in the words of my Dad, "Life isn't fair! Get over it!"
Obama's ideas are just better. His composure is more presidential. When it came to explaining his health care package, McCain had no recourse but to use his memorized attack right after Obama was very articulate as to what his plan actually was and what it wasn't. He just looked foolish. He couldn't think on his feet. He couldn't articulate his ideas (he even called Obama "Senator Government" at one point. By accident.) He looked frustrated and annoyed. At one point, I literally felt like I could see McCain saying in his head, "Man, I wish that was my plan. That sounds better than my plan."
If we want to get into the issues as to why I'm an Obama man, we can, and I'm more than happy to do that. But you'd have to at least agree that last night, one guy looked ready to lead the country, and one guy looked like someone had just stolen his favorite toy.
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36 comments:
And Obama still kills babies, that's a good health plan.
Hey Jake I watched as much of the debate as I could stomach. I really can only take so much of not answering the question your asked before I start wanting to get violent. Even with as much as I've read, and watching almost all of the debates, I am still undecided.
And since you are an "Obama man" and welcome being pushed on the issues, let me do just that in regards to abortion.
Now here me out, as I know it has become a mantra of many young evangelicals to want to "move past" this issue as they suffer from fetus fatigue. But I just don't think things are that simple. This is the one part of the debate that perked my interest and I think McCain failed miserably to nail Obama on some of his views of abortion that are logically incoherent. Here is a great article on this very point.
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5080
Obama's campaign is largely attractive to many evangelicals because it appears to give great attention to human rights and social justice. Obama went as far as to say that we have a "moral" responsibility to intervene in situations like Darfur. What morals? And why do those morals involve the action of government but abortion does not?
Social justice has become all the rage as we want to look out for the least of our culture, but how can we claim to do that when we still allow the killing of 5 million babies a year? Are they not the most vulnerable, and needy of all? And it is a cop-out to think this issue should be tabled and we can do nothing about it. People told the same thing to Wilberforce as he continued for decades to speak out on the issue of slavery. Why? Because he saw it as a moral evil, this did not change nor did his conviction when people grew tired of the issue and told him to move on. We can not neglect this when we cast our vote.
Last, Obama's response last night that abortion is, "tragic" makes absolutely no sense. If abortion is a private matter, and not a moral evil then why should we care about limiting them or think they are tragic? McCain could have turned the whole debate around by simply asking Obama, "what makes an abortion tragic?"
I am still undecided, but I have a hard time seeing Obama as the great human rights, social justice figure that many evangelicals are making him out to be, when he refuses to take a stand for millions of humans, created in the image of God, being killed every year!
Ryan and Anonymous,
First of all, I'm not sure I've ever heard of Obama killing a baby. If so, I don't think I could vote for him. I'm going to assume, Anonymous, that you meant he is pro-choice, so I'll take it from there.
I would like to begin this by saying I bow to your brain (Ryan, not anonymous. I don't know you anonymous so I'm going to assume I have a superior brain). You are much, much smarter than I so there's a real good chance that everything you are saying is right and everything I'm about to type is wrong. I will also fully admit that I'm no pro-choice, planned parenthood, kool-aid drinking 'baby killer'. I don't like abortion. I wish it didn't exist. I think it's wrong and sinful. And tragic.
I think this dialogue is good. If I need to, we can back track the Roe v. Wade decision and why I agree with it. I believe our constitution does give us an inerrant right to privacy. I believe what my wife and I decide to do, or frankly, what my gay neighbor decides to do in the privacy of our (or his) bedroom is no business of the government. Because of that, I agree with the decision that until a fetus (I can say inutero baby if it makes you feel better) is viable to the state, the decision is up to the person carrying it. Do I personally believe God already knows and loves that child. Yes I do. But do I believe the Court found the best middle ground to not legislate my morality but also my religious belief? Yes I do. Follow me. While our country was founded on Christian principles, it was those principles that said people have a right to practice any religion they see fit, even no religion at all. As such, the issue of abortion gets sticky, especially for Christians who take the birth control pill. If you believe that life begins at conception, it would be completely hipocriticaly to take the birth control pill. Most birth control pills work in the manner of not allowing a fertilized egg to implant itself in the woman (some work by provided a mucus liner that prevents the sperm meeting the egg, but always also has a part of it that works the previous mentioned way too, just in case). So, in essence, if you believe a soul begins at the momment the sperm fertilizes the egg, you must be convicted immediately to never use the pill again and churches across america should be preaching this. But we don't. Why? Probably because we don't want to think about it. But I think for another reason. You see, my wife and I have used the pill all 5 years of our marriage right up to two months before we conceived Chloe. I refuse to believe that when I get to heaven there will be several of my 'children' there that will say, "hey thanks for that whole pill thing. Appreciate it."
The question, one to which Obama said was above his pay grade, so I'm sure it's WELL above mine, is when does a baby become a baby with a soul. I'm not convinced it's at week 13. I'm not convinced it's the momment the "navel" comes through the birth canal (the current standard for partial-birth abortions). Is it before? Is it after? I don't know.
I know that if my wife were 8 weeks pregnant and a doctor told us if we went through with the pregnancy it would kill my wife that we would have a hard decision to make. That might sound calloused, but I know that I don't want to raise Chloe and another child on my own. I don't want to live the rest of my life without my wife. If it came down to it, I choose Candice over an 8 week old baby (or 12 week or even up to 24 week, the current cut-off line for abortions not affecting the health of the mother).
I know that most women who have abortions probably aren't in that situation. I know it's a reaching "what if" at best. But, there are cases where a pregnancy can threaten the life of a woman, and I believe it's her right to have an opportunity to make a decision. I also believe it's a woman's right up to 12 weeks. Sadly, I know that they truly have longer than that.
So how can I justify being 'pro-life' but voting and believing our country gives and should give the right to be pro-choice? Probably the same way I justify being a christian and never doing anything about it. If I really cared about abortion, I would volunteer my time, or at least donate my money, to alternatives. We have a couple in our small group that have been trying to conceive a child for about 2 years. They've tried all the routes and nothing works. 23 weeks ago, a friend of theirs 15 year old sister was raped and conceived. The young lady (who isn't a believer) wrestled with the decision for a long time but decided to terminate. When our small group members found out, they immediately offered to take the baby if she would have it. This prolonged her decision into the second trimester. She still decided to terminate and decided to go to California (where the law is a little more liberal...go figure eh?) to do it. Even still, she seemed to continue to run into road blocks. We prayed, and prayed and prayed that one way or another she wouldn't terminate and give this wonderful gift to our small group couple. But, right at 23 weeks, she found a doctor that would do it and went forward with it. While this didn't end the way we prayed and prayed that it would, this is an example of a christian being pro-life. I wonder how many less abortions woudl happen if more Christians (myself included) would be willing to do what our small group couple did. But we don't. I don't. I don't want to. I'm comfortable where I am. I want my kids to be...well, MY kids. I'm not sure what that says about me, but it says something bad but truthful.
I know this is a novel, and I'm sure this is all over the place, but I'm trying to say that it's possible to be pro-life and vote pro-choice. It's possible to be pro-life and protect pro-choice.
Further, let's follow the morality legislation futher. Should it be illegal to have an affair? It's immoral, but other than a financial licking (unless you were protect by a pre-nup), it's not illegal. Should it be? Should everything immoral be illegal? Sodomy? Divorce? Porn? The death penalty? (I know, I'm begging for it with that last one) Personally, I say no. I can choose not to participate in those, but shouldn't be arrested if I do.
SOOOOOOOOOO....to try and do some sort of coherant (I know, that ship probably already sailed) wrap-up. We had 6 years where we had a republican (and thereby pro-life) house, a republican senate, a republican president, and a republican majority nominated supreme court. When "Gonzales v. Carhart" was heard before the Supreme Court in 2006 and ruled on in 2007, the Supreme Court (the conservative majority) supreme court pretty much said, "hey, that's it on abortion. We've ruled about everything we can rule and we aren't going to hear anymore about it". So, to say I want to "move past" it would be right. We can't do anything LEGALLY about it (nor, do I believe we should). But if we really care about the rights of the unborn, I think we can join Obama in preventing unwanted pregnancies. We can educate and parent our children to save sex for marriage. I may not be able to stop all abortions, but I sure as heck can with my daughter. If we would all take this responsibility, if we would all be more like our small group couple, we would see the number of abortions drop. And that's something we can do.
Sorry so long. If anyone is still actually reading this. Congrats, you win a prize.
By the way, the point of the original post was to discuss the tactics of the debate itself. Does anyone think McCain actually won?
Thanks Jake for the thoughtful response. Just like you I am trying to take the totality of governance and life into account. Your comment helped me continue to process how I am going to cast my vote, I really am still undecided.
And yes I think Obama owned him in almost all the debates, as McCain came off as small, and snarky.
this dialogue may be better than the one on tv, nice job fellas.
i would say at this point i would vote Obama, but not without some serious trepidation. the dude scares me. It's kind of like "Dexter", the showtime series where Dexter is a top ranked forensic specialist with the police...and he lives a double life as a serial killer. i'm sensing a possible dark side to Obama that we either don't see, blind ourselves too, or we think is just in the past. it's like the whole pastor jeremiah wright thing just went away, but I can't stop making that connection.
however, like you, I think McCain is a stuffy, mean, bitter old man who's still ticked at getting beaten by Bush in the 2000 primaries. I mean, seriously, McCain wasn't good enough to beat Bush then, but he's good enough to be the nominee now? Whoa. Scary. At the same time, I want to be careful to dismiss him just cuz he don't speak too good in public. Not every great church leader is necessarily a great speaker. It just helps to be.
And Palin is a punchline, nothing more. Is there a single important decision, other than which 3rd grade choral group to have sing at the White House for Easter, that she's qualified to make if she were president? She knows NOTHING about any policy, foreign or domestic, and sounds like a wind up doll when she gives her pat, "McCain-Palin Administration" answers.
To answer your questions....yes, Obama, in terms of dictation, appearance, attentiveness, and presentation, as killed McCain in every debate. Have you noticed how Obama actually listens to McCain speak? And when Obama speaks, McCain reads his notes, smirks, and acts as if Obama isn't even there? Pitiful.
Ultimately, I say Rick Warren for president. He's well known, popular, well connected, rich, and could pull together the ENTIRE Christian vote. And it would be totally awesome to have a president who wears hawaiian shirts.
For centuries, including now, most Christians have seen life as beginning at conception. (Scriptures will be provided if needed and requested) To say that the decision to accept anyone taking the life of the innocent is "above my pay-grade" is simply a crock. You are right, your brain probably is superior to mine, but I do know that sticking a pair of sciorrs (sp) into the head of a child is not only morally wrong, sinful and needs to be stopped. Cutting a child up and then sucking a child out of a mother's womb needs to be stopped - it is wrong. Putting a saline solution into the womb and actually buring the child alive - (sounds a lot like the worship of Molech in the OT doesn't it?) And to say that you can support a man or party that PROUDLY PROCLAIMS to give that right of murder to any woman - you're right - that kind of thinking is beyond my pay grade!
Jake, you always could "argue" for your line of thinking. But that doesn't make you right. Anymore than my way of thinking is right. We have to compare our thoughts to Scripture. If you don't know that life begins at conception, and the taking of that life is murder...well, I guess I failed you as your Mother. Some things are just simple "black and white."
Is it REALLY this simple? Really? By this way of thinking, if Christians really are "Christians", all we really need to do for all future elections (local, state, national, presidential, whatever) is confirm which candidate takes the strongest stance against abortion...and vote for that person. Does it matter what they think about the economy, health care, care for the eldery, social security, education, use of the military, free trade, maintaining world peace, human rights, or whether they inspire americans in some way?
If it's just this simple, wouldn't John McCain simply make all of his debate answers about being anti-abortion, thereby insuring the entire evangelical vote and almost guaranteeing his victory?
No, becuase it's not that simple. It never is. What if Obama or McCain openly pronounced abortion, repeatedly, but you disagreed with every other stance that either one took on every oether issue? Does either then become a candidate worth your full support?
Anonymous and Mom,
Okay, I began a response that I don't have time to finish today, but wanted to write something. Anonymous, if by some chance you were offended by my brain comment, I'm sorry. That was for my readers who share my second grade level of humor. Mom, you actually succeeded in raising as you taught me to think on my own and research things.
Let me be clear. I'm no more FOR abortion than the guy who shoots the abortion doctor. I think it's horrible and gross. I don't ever want a woman to be faced with that decision. But, being that I believe in the freedoms of our country, I understand how the decision was crafted and explained and believe that that it is the best it's going to get. It deals with the right to privacy and the ways our laws are crafted, I understand how it is legal. So, instead of basing my vote solely on one issue (though an issue definately worth attention) I would base it on the things I believe we can actually do something about. If, as a christian, I really wanted to do something about abortion, I would hope it would be more than just vote once every four years for the one who touts the pro-life flag.
I will blog more later, but please continue to discuss.
Anonymous,
1) I'm not encouraging anyone to "stick their head in the sand". Just because I vote for someone and believe that our country should remain pro-choice does not make me pro-abortion. On the contrary, what I've tried to say in these comment sections, is that if we really want to do something about it, we can and should. Realizing that the law will never change (by the way, we had 6 years of a pro-life president, pro-life majority in the house and senate, and pro-life majority on the Supreme Court. And abortion rights still continued. It is never, ever going to change.), we should concentrate on the things that can: Preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place (we can argue about the best strategies here. I'm not saying I know them. I'm guessing it's going to take some good parenting and a lot of love), and loving those who have conceived and are struggling with this decision. Why aren't christian's asking themselves how THEY can make a difference? I say it's because we've grown used to corporate america where we feel the only way things will get done is by the large organization (non-profit, church, government, etc) to do it. So, instead of grass roots movements, we get red tape, discouraged, and quit. So, if you really feel this passionate to make a difference in an anti-abortion type way, adopt a child. Or cousel at a women's center. Or...something. But don't expect that by casting a vote once every 4 years for the pro-life candidate that the blood won't be on your hands as well.
2)Wow. And what is the homosexual agenda? TO MAKE EVERYONE GAY!!!! Come on. They just want to be happy. They want to visit their partners in the hospital when it's "families only". They want their health care benefits extended to their spouses. I'm not saying I believe this is the plan God has for his people. But we all fall short. I don't believe legislating against homosexuality and using language like "queer" will ever convict someone of their sins.
3)I count at most 2 judges that should be replaced in the next 8 years (Ginsburg and Stevens). Of the 9 SC justices, 7 of them were appointed by republicans. Of the two I mentioned, one is already 'liberal' (Ginsburg was appointed by Clinton). It would take all 5 over 70 to retire or die in the next 4-8 years for a 'liberal' sc to exist. I doubt that is going to happen.
4) Umm...okay. Bush had 8 years to appoint his, Clinton his 8 before that, and Reagan and Bush the 12 before that. Power swings back and forth. It happens.
5)I agree about the higher taxes businesses will trickle down to us. But good news is, there will be more of us who will be able to afford to pay that because we will no longer have people who hundreds of thousands of dollars to hospitals because they couldn't afford health care in the first place. Also, if we can turn this economic situation around, we'll all have more money to pay those taxes. Besides, our national debt has DOUBLED in the last 8 years. You want to talk about our children and their children? All the debt it took our country to accrue in the last 200+ years was DOUBLED in the last 8. 200 vs. 8. With the bailing out of the banking system, we already have a socialistic system (with a republican president mind you).
I'm with Jason. I don't think everything is that simple. But I don't think we are helpless. This is good discussion, but we can do more. I understand your reasoning for wanting to make abortion illegal. That is a very noble task. So get involved with some legit pro-life groups (if killing doctors is ever mentioned, I'd walk away from that one). While you are at it, protest capital punishment as well. Life is life.
Jake, you said, "Just because I vote for someone and believe that our country should remain pro-choice does not make me pro-abortion."
I wonder how it would look if we inserted other morally reprehensible actions in the place of "abortion.":
Just because I vote for someone and believe that our country should remain against "killing black people with stutters" does not make me pro-"killing black people with stutters."
Just because I vote for someone and believe that our country should remain against "killing short women with brown hair married to guys named Jake or Matt" does not make me pro-"killing short women with brown hair married to guys named Jake or Matt".
Just because I vote for someone and believe that our country should remain against "killing Christians" does not make me pro-"killing Christians".
Geez, somehow it just doesn't sound right? Hmmm.
okay, I totally messed up the wording to that, but you get my point.
I will never understand the democractic justification for abortion. "I don't think abortion is right! I just can't impose my view on you in light of the fact that the Constitution gives everyone privacy." Ok. Privacy to do as you please? On your own property when no one is looking? What about third party strangulation? Hey, it's private. Got him when he stepped into the closet and wasn't looking. Leave me alone and go mind your own business!
The Constitution imposes morality. Thou shall not kill, steal, etc. What type of society would we have without a legal system set up to impose a value system? Abortion falls under the kill category by the way. Or if abortion isn't killing, what is it? Is killing merely the act of causing the heart to stop beating, the brain from receiving any signals, or does dying have a more significant spiritual meaning? When does God acknowledge the baby's existence? After conception or is He hanging out in the waiting room waiting for the baby to be born with the rest of the family? If at conception, what are God's thoughts on preventing the baby from being born in any way? If God is hanging out in the waiting room, is the baby unreachable to Him while it's in the womb?
And hey, if the Pope is against abortion, I'm against it. Are you saying the Pope doesn't know what he is talking about? Is he glib? What would your pastor say? About the Pope that is. No, I mean about abortion.
Matt,
I understand your point but will disagree that there is a difference. Let's use another moral choice: divorce. Now, I'm against divorce. I will never be divorced. Yet, I don't believe it should be illegal. So, while I can vote for and believe in a country where divorce is illegal, that does not make me pro-divorce. See the difference?
Anonymous, I would wonder if you feel the same way about birth control as the pope? How about the death penalty?
Hey Jake sorry for creating such a firestorm on your blog, and anonymous, why don't you tell us who you are?
But I will say your divorce comparison to Matt's examples does not hold up. As the article I linked to earlier there is really no fundamental difference between abortion and slavery. It is just logically inconsistent to say I am personally against it, but not publicly. The truth is that all laws are morals, so those who claim we should not "legislate morality" are really just saying, "we should not legislate your morality but mine." Divorce is only the ending of a contract, not a life.
We can not say we believe that abortion is killing babies, and I am personally against it, but okay if my neighbor does. This is horrific.
I guess I am passionate about this issue just because I see it as a human right issue. The same way Obama see's intervening in Darfur as a human rights issue. Or how I also see the caring of the poor and marginalized as a human rights issue.
I know you are not the official Obama spokesman, and I am sorry for putting you on the spot from the start, but I would beg you not to give into fetus fatigue and think that abortion a dead issue to be left behind with the religious right. In my opinion there is no more important human rights issue in our time.
Here's the thing. Abortion is murder. Obama supports legalized murder. Whether he can do anything about it, Obama still supports murder. And not just any kind of murder, murdering the defenseless. Murdering those who would be a drain on society.
Murder is different than divorce. Divorce is ending a contract. Murder is pre-meditatively killing someone. Murder is that thing that happened to Jesus on the cross. I digress, abortion is murder and Obama supports it to extents that I am certain even you Jake are not comfortable with.
This is not a non-issue because the SC hasn't done anything in the last 25 years. IF IT IS MURDER, THEN LIKE WILBERFORCE AND SLAVERY WE MUST FIGHT THIS GRAVE INJUSTICE FOR GENERATIONS ON END.
I digress. Abortion is murder. Obama supports legalized murder. I can understand that a Christian would want to vote for Obama. I just cannot imagine it not coming without tears and painstaking infighting.
As Ryan stated earlier, "true religion is taking care of widows and orphans." Those without a voice and in danger. If this is true, then abortion is antithetical to Christianity. Once again, I can understand voting for someone on the sheer basis that you think it will be better for our country. But how has it affected you? How much sleep have you lost? How troubled has it made you that you have put the well being of our country over standing up for those who are in danger and can't stand up for themselves? (regardless of the efficacy of your standing up)
Now I understand the alternative comes with a price. Do I think McCain/Pain is better for our country than Obama/Biden? Hell to the no. Am I sick and tired of being pandered to as an evangelical by the GOP? Hell to the yes. Does it make me sick that I am baited every election voting for a greedy GOP party just because they are the party that is pro-life? Hell to the yes. Does it bother me to no end that I am forced to choose between what I believe is best for the country, and standing up for the unborn? Hell to the yes.
But here's the plain honest truth: before I am an American I am a Christian. And before I can seek what is best for the country I must seek to be truly religious: standing up for those who cannot. I fear God more than a prolonged recession and terrible foreign policy, and one day I will have to stand before him and I pray that I won't say, "When did I see you helpless and without a voice...."
I am against birth control and the death penalty. Of course. It is all in the same bucket. And divorce is drastically different than killing. If not biblically (all sins are the same), at least from a moral perspective. Again, if we have a governing body that imposes ideas (some of those being morals, which is good and needed!), preventing the direct killing of the innocent falls pretty high on the list of things to impose.
Also, the national debt is terrible. On the bright side, it should be looked at relative to GDP. A person with $50k of debt is in worse shape if he makes $50k per year versus if he makes $1 MM per year. See how bright!
And people that say the bailout plan is socialism either don't understand the bailout plan or don't understand socialism. Or both I suppose. The bailout plan is temporary. It has a set adenda. If we are going to practice socialism, let's start with feeding the poor! Although the poor and downtrodden will inherit the earth. Maybe they are on to something. Seems like the rest of us have to work a lot harder at it!
And regarding homosexuals, fine, let them visit each other in the hospital. Falls much lower on the list of things to impose. Goes to being a realist, like you obviously are.
I mean this in all sincerity...I want to thank you all for your comments.
This is a touchy subject and the comment section of a blog is probably the most dangerous place to touch on it. Most of the time, it turns into nothing more than juvenile series of back and forth name calling.
So I really appreciate the thought you have all put into your comments. They are well stated and about as polite as you could ever expect on such a touchy subject.
You have all challenged me to think about this issue (both politically and ethically) on a much deeper level than the simple pat answer I have lazily accepted my whole life.
Now, I'm not going to tell you WHAT I am thinking...because you are all smarter than me and quite frankly, I'm scared of you. But just know that, for me, your all's conversation has been beneficial.
So, I'll just say thanks!
Okay, I reread my last comment and realize I should have done the following.
1. Responded to the divorce/abortion comment in it's own comment.
2. Explained the heart-wrenching struggle I am having in my own heart as I contemplate in my own post.
3. Discuss my concerns with Obama supporting Christians in a private way.
That because I did all three in one post it came off more confrontational in certain point when it shouldn't and sounded more like accusation and attack than an explanation of what I am struggling with.
I love you Jake. Let's hug this out Sunday. Which if the Colts are playing you'll need anyway (ohhhhhh!!!!)
I don't think anonymous is singular.
"Because of that, I agree with the decision that until a fetus (I can say inutero baby if it makes you feel better) is viable to the state, the decision is up to the person carrying it." That is like saying that someone under 18 shouldn't be liable for their own actions. Sort of. It's also like saying we can't make a terrorist stand trial in an American court (or military court, go Bush!) because he isn't a U.S. citizen. Again, sort of. You get what I am trying to say. Maybe. The government governs all the time on things that aren't viable to it so to speak. (Insane people can receive the death penalty. There we go condoning killing again.)
Regarding everything discussed here, there needs to be clarification that the government imposes morality on people in order to maintain a healthy society. It does not impose religion, or we would have laws against adultery, which we never will. With that said, luckily the government's need to impose morality and our religion intersect with abortion! So take the chance to support ideas that do interect when you get them.
Another thought about privacy and her decision. What about his decision? Isn't it half his? And if one is for abortion, when you think about it on a mass scale, women could control the world if she is the only one who has a say (certainly not the man or government in your mind). They could control when the world ends. They could all form a "labor" union (pun intended) and say not another child will be born unless you men worship us! Bow down all you fools! Pretty crazy. Who is in support of that?
And regarding homosexuality, if you are accepting of it, then look at that on a mass scale too. If 1 homo is ok, what is wrong with 2, or everyone in the U.S.? How about everyone in the world? Well, the world ends if everyone is gay. God would be pissed if we ended ourselves like that I bet. And we could. Free will after all. And I don't want to even get into the "parts don't fit" argument, which is the best of all. Correct answers are so often provided by simple observation. "He woulda made em fit if he wanted em to fit." Just like the best proof for God is that we are here. If you keep going back for enough, you get to a point where you got nothing. Something doesn't come from nothing on its own.
I'll just say a couple of things and then get the heck out.
1) I too am stupid compared to most of you so take this all with a few grains of salt.
2) To stir the plot in blog comments under the name ANONYMOUS is gutless, plain and simple. If you're so proud of your stance, own it. Any goofball can cause a scene... be a grownup and use the name your momma gave you.
3) Republicans have been in office for 20 of the past 28 years with Roe v. Wade on the books. Consider me less than hopeful that McCain will do anything about it... he's on record as saying he won't automatically appoint pro-life Supreme Court Justices.
4) I am a follower of Jesus and I believe that abortion is murder. Life begins at conception. I am pro-life. I disagree with Obama on this issue.
5) I'm still voting for Obama because I don't agree with either man on everything. This Christian idea that you have to pick the "most moral" issue and then vote for the guy who sides with you on that is absurd. There are 20 issues that have moral implications... abortion, healthcare, the war, the economy, etc.
6) It blows my mind that folks who are so fired up about abortion can in the same breath be pro-gun, pro-death penalty, and pro-war. I'm sorry, but if you want to save babies but blow up adults with bombs and fry criminals in electric chairs, you are not pro-life. This idea that somehow abortion makes God sicker to his stomach than poverty or war is preposterous.
7) I believe good Christian people will vote for McCain in this election. I belive good Christians will vote for Obama. Let's try to be nice to each other.
8) In response to your original question, yes, Obama smoked McCain in the debates... it was pitiful actually. I went into election season thinking I would be okay with either guy winning because I felt like both were competent to lead. After watching the debates, I wouldn't say that about McCain anymore... he looks competent to recite 10 lines off a note card, flash creepy smiles, and to say "Maverick" every other word and that's about it. His selection of Palin sealed the deal... she's cute and fun but fit to be president? Don't even get me started!
9) One final thought... Maverick got Goose killed. I cried when that happened as a kid so I don't like people calling themselves that.
- Greg
9) One final thought... Maverick got Goose killed. I cried when that happened as a kid so I don't like people calling themselves that.
I am with you on this one Greg! Lets not mess with Top Gun lore.
Great insights and thanks for your thoughts. I am still grappling my way into figuring how who I will vote for in this election. And you are right that we have had many Republican majorities and abortion is still legal. Maybe as a compromise I would offer that those who will vote for Obama, not forget about the abortion issue and consider it to be dead and old. We must not suffer from fetus fatigue and just table the issue in the name of "progress." As I said before it really is the ultimate human rights issue: the right to life.
#1 anonymous is back. and for the last time. Okay, it's Pete. how's that. Hold the truck there Greg. A little touchy aren't we? Just two comments, maybe more -
1. No matter how you cut it - it doesn't matter who is running the ship, abortion is still murder. If you as a Christian can mark the ballot for a man who may not be a "baby killer" himself, but sees absolutely NOTHING wrong with giving others that right, then you mark your ballot and sleep like a baby at night knowing that you have approved of his position. Just don't be surprised when they come to eliminate you when you are older because your quality of life isn't what they think it should be.
2. lumping guns, capital punishment in with abortion is a crock and a bad argument. Capital punishment is ordained by God, both in the OT and the NT. Most of you discussees are Bible Collge people - READ YOUR BIBLES. You are making decisions based on your emotions and not the Word.
Pete here again - I know, I thought I was done too. Does it bother any of you Obama men that B/O is really good friends with a known terriorist and enemy of the USA - Mr. Ayers. Don't give me that crap that he doesn't know him and that they aren't friends. Facts can be denied but they are still facts. Truth is always truth. Ayers should be in jail. He is an admitted MARXIST - maybe you don't know what that is - look it up. B/O wants to "redistribute the wealth". Pure socialism. You guys have a nice life.
I have nothing left to say on the subject. I'll just apologize for being morally reprehensible for even the thought of supporting a pro-choice administration, but I have to side with Jake and Greg on most of these issues.
Otherwise, I just wanted to try and help you get to 30 total comments. That's a pretty big feat. Congrats.
- jason
What do you do if you knocked up your girl in a night of passion and afterwards she decided she didn't want to keep it and you did?
Pete here. that anonymous wasn't me. just for the record. i wish people would identify themselves. Kids go out and vote and if you register with Acorn, vote 3 or 4 times.
Okay, I've tried to wait a couple of days to see if all the comments were done. I've wanted to post something new, but frankly, (yes, I am this shallow) have been excited about my traffic, so hey, look at me!!
There's no way I can answer everything that's been said in the last few comments. I know a lot of you, so talking in person is so much more fun anyway. Pete, thanks for stopping by. Though it was on a sensitive subject, I thought you expressed yourself clearly and were respectful. Anonymous number 2, I have to be honest, I didn't follow your arguements all the time.
I will once again reiterate my belief that if Christians really desire for a change in our country in regards to abortion, we shouldn't 'bury our head in sand' nor should we count on our government to do anything about it either. Instead, we should adopt children. We should volunteer at battered women's shelters. We should be responsible parents.
I guess my point is, Jesus lived in a time when he disagreed with most of what the government in charge was doing. There was slavery back then. There were abortions. There was homosexuality. But instead of calling all the Jews to overthrow the govt, he said, "Love your neighbor. Pray for those who persecute you. Pray for your enemy." He support civic duty (paying taxes) but was willing to stand up for injustice. This, I believe, will do more to end abortion then voting republican (or democrat for that matter).
There are more than two anonymouses. I am 15, 19 and 23.
I was a little tough to follow, but basically all I was saying is there is a difference between the Biblical view and how the political system tries to handle things. The difference is that the Constitution can't impose Biblical views directly. i.e. It can't reference the Ten Commandments. But it does impose moral views, particularly extremes that have a drastically negative effect on society at large (and more particularly from a health perspective). That is why the Constitution condones killing, prostitution, grand theft, etc. Being gay doesn't really harm people too much, so it isn't clearly and completely banned like killing is.
Biblically I think it is clear God is not a supporter of abortion. No exceptions. Whether from rape or whatever other crazy scenario one can come up with.
Regarding how politics tries to handle it again, I think they go about it in a ridiculous way. Try to define when the baby is "viable," privacy issues, and so forth. No matter how you cut it, I think God is against it so any odd justification I think doesn't hold up.
My problem with the Democratic stance is 1.) the try to justify it and 2.) some are actually even against it, but still try to justify it.
In conclusion, I think trying to justify abortion sends the wrong message on the value of human life from a political perspective and is in direct opposition to God's view on the subject matter from a Biblical perspective. Moreover, I think society has degraded to such a point that there is a huge number of people who want the Constitution to provide them a way out of the consequences associated with their hedonistic ways at the expense of the preciousness of human life and the will of God. And unfortunately the American political system delivered.
Dear TAH, I personally know Anonymous #1 (Pete). He has adopted kids, given his money to support pro-life causes, counseled and given of himself to those in need, and at times walked the picket line in public demonstrations. I also know he is a man of prayer. Have any of us thought to pray about this election?
Anonymous and Anonymous,
I don't disagree that God is against abortion. We may disagree on when life begins, but I don't believe we disagree on God being in favor of life. However, I don't believe it is our country, nor the founders intention, to legislate based on scripture. I'm not sure what people are using the constitution to do what. Like I said before, I believe it's possible to be personally pro-life and politically pro-choice.
Anonymous (Pete's friend), I have no doubt Pete is a stand up guy. I believe that if we are all more like him, the world wouldn't need social programs to do the church's job for us. My mom (herself having adopted 3 children after her naturally born children had all left the house...talk about courage) told me once that if ever christian couple in america would adopt 1 child, we would have no orphans. I'm not up with the latest stats, so this may or may not be accurate, but I bet it's pretty darn close. This is deeply convicting to me as my wife and I just had a baby girl and I ponder, What is my part to play? We always wanted two, perhaps now would be the time to adopt. It's something I'm wrestling with currently.
Anyway, I tried to leave this post at the top for as long as I could, but now I must return to my posting of stupid videos. The world needs my contributions...
Okay Jake I promise last time I will push back. And before I begin let me say I admire how much your willing to engage on this issue and model civility in disagreement. Here is what you said, "However, I don't believe it is our country, nor the founders intention, to legislate based on scripture."
As I stated before all laws are legislated morality. Do not rape, steal, enslave, kill are all morals being legislated. If we believe that abortion is the killing of a baby then we should be consistent in saying that it must be legislated against in the same way it would be illegal to kill a infant.
It is also an error to think this is "legislating scripture." Our Declaration of Independence tells us that our founding fathers intended to legislate the rights of LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (the happiness clause was originally property, but Jefferson wanted to flower it up a bit). Notice that life is one of the foundational values and intentions of our founding fathers in regards to the governments obligations to the citizenry.
The biggest lie, and it has permeated the minds of many good God loving Christians, is that you can be personally against abortion, and politically pro-life. Joe Biden spouts this line and it has been torn apart as being logically inconsistent (str.org-searchJoeBiden). As if abortion was is only a religious issue and can be consigned to the realm of faith, it can not. I would recommend the renowned scholar Francis Beckwith's book "Defending Life" on this subject, as he brilliantly demonstrates that the case against abortion does not need any support from religious doctrine, but stands quite aptly on legal precedent, human rights, science, and the democratic political philosophy.
Jake I would just like to hear how you would respond to someone who said, "I am personally against slavery but politically okay with it." I hope you would find this terribly flawed in reasoning and repugnant. I still have not heard you address this point.
And let me say for the record that I beat this drum not because I am a card carrying member of the Religious Right, but because it is TRULY the ultimate human rights issue. Unborn babies are silent victims of murder, who are killed behind closed doors without a trial or massive news coverage. We do not see their faces, or their grieving families mourning on the courtroom steps. They are simply killed and disposed off through a routine medical procedure. Even vehement atheists such as Christopher Hitchens, find this deplorable and think it should be outlawed. For Hitchens it certainly is not a religious or scriptural matter, it is a civic matter of justice and human rights.
Even as I still struggle to fill out my ballot for Obama or McCain (still undecided) my conscience is pinged with the question of how does Obama conjure up a moral imperative to intervene in Darfur in the name of human rights and life, but not for the unborn baby?
Yes Ryan, you put into words much better on what I was trying to say!
Oh one important typo: I meant personally pro-life and politically pro-choice.
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